David: 0:08

Welcome to the new Rules for Work labs, where we're rewriting the rules of work. In our lab, we glean insights from the world's foremost minds, exploring leadership, team dynamics, creativity, artificial intelligence, and more. Join us as we dissect, analyze, and incubate ideas shaping the future workplace. Stick around to learn how we turn these insights into practical activities. Get ready for a journey into the future of work. This is the new Rules for Work Labs, where insights meet action.

David Mastronardi: 0:40

okay. So I need to get over my disgust with My Wi Fi network with squad cast, right? We pay for that. That we, um, so anyway, I know we wanted to start today with something different for the podcast and do some, um, joke related ice melters, Elise.

Elise Keith: 1:00

That's right. All right. So one of the things that I appreciate and love about your work, Alison, is that you have, have a welcome for levity, right? In, in business talk and the importance of levity. And I used that inspired by you to, um, get to know my new co chairs in my braver angels work, which is about bringing people together. Who are politically polarized to the table together, right? So it's a situation where everybody's really anxious. about the potential for friction. Yes. Um, so we started by, uh, sharing our favorite dad jokes as our intro. And, and if you don't have one handy, I can tell you a tip. You can pick any noun on the planet and do a quick Google search for that noun and you will find, um, great dad jokes.

Alison Wood Brooks: 1:57

I have one. You know what's so pathetic? I have three kids under the age of ten. Like, I, this should be my core area of strength. I should have, like, an arsenal of hundreds of jokes. I also follow this, like, random account on Instagram that's these dads sitting around. Telling dad jokes, trying to not laugh at each other's. Have you seen this?

Elise Keith: 2:19

No, but it sounds perfect. It's

Alison Wood Brooks: 2:21

so amazing. But let me tell you, this is like my handicap. I love levity so much. I can, I cannot remember other people's jokes for the life of me. Like I, I should have a million and now my mind is like, Completely blank, but I have, I think I have one. One is perfect. Should I share it? Are you ready? Yeah. Okay. Buckle up. So I think the only ones I remember, my kids had a, a book of Halloween related jokes. And so they're all stupid puns that have to do with Halloween Um, and so what is a ghosts? favorite food? Is it boo berries? Great guess. Dave, do you have a guess?

David Mastronardi: 3:10

I was going to say booyah base.

Alison Wood Brooks: 3:13

It's not even boo. What the heck is that? Booyah base. Oh yeah. Like, wow. That's very foodie. What a sophisticated guess. I was

David Mastronardi: 3:22

going to go with boo berries, but it was taken.

Alison Wood Brooks: 3:25

No, guys, it's ice cream. It's on the leaf. Oh, yes, of course. Boo. Boo.

David Mastronardi: 3:36

Speaking of food, speaking of food, I read a stat, um, the other day that we actually eat more bananas than monkeys.

Alison Wood Brooks: 3:45

Really?

David Mastronardi: 3:46

Yeah, well, remember the last time you ate a monkey?

Alison Wood Brooks: 3:55

I'm hiding. I can't believe, for some reason, I'm watching. Dad, you have a way of making me feel really stupid. Awesome. I wanted to do, like, calculations of, like, how many monkeys are there in the world? That's right.

David Mastronardi: 4:11

That's

Alison Wood Brooks: 4:12

right. Like, that can't be right. How dare you? Oh, my God.

Elise Keith: 4:17

Your kids will hit a phase. So, I think yours are younger than mine. And my daughter just hit 12, and she's hit this phase, and she's like, Can I give you a common sense test? They're all jokes like that. Oh, my God. And

Alison Wood Brooks: 4:30

you're like, no, you may not because none of us have common sense. And can we just stipulate that no one has common sense? And then, no. That's so

Elise Keith: 4:40

cute. So my favorite, um, was taught to me by a gentleman I had met for the first time and how he was introduced as an ultra conservative youth pastor. And we did the round of jokes and he said, well, here's my joke. It was, uh. I'm having trouble with these new sneakers. That I just got from my drug dealer. I don't know what he laced him with, but I've been tripping all day. Oh my

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:07

God. Oh my God. It's so much better that it's coming from like a very conservative, like, uh, youth pastor.

Elise Keith: 5:17

What a way to like, just bust all your expectations wide, right?

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:20

Yeah. Like

Elise Keith: 5:21

if it was coming from like a drug dealer,

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:23

you'd be like, you know, you can do better.

Elise Keith: 5:24

Right. So Alison, um, We are so thrilled to talk to you. We know you have a new book coming out. Yeah. We know you teach, uh, teach the exciting, highest rated course at Harvard on Talk. Is that the name of the

Alison Wood Brooks: 5:44

book Talk? Yes. The book title is Talk, um, the Science of Conversation and the Art of Being Ourselves. The course is called Talk How to Talk Gooder in Business and Life. So, closely, closely linked, closely linked, closely linked.

Elise Keith: 6:01

Um, so we want to dive in today to talking, uh, now taking some of the great work you've done in academic research and then applying that to situations that we encounter in the business world as consultants, as educators, um, in, in the practice part of the universe.

Alison Wood Brooks: 6:22

Love it.

Elise Keith: 6:25

Dave, do you have any questions about or things you want to lead off before we go dive into some scenarios? Yeah,

David Mastronardi: 6:32

well, look, we will obviously get into these things when we get into the scenarios and give you like a more orthogonal way to approach them. But, um, you know, just going through and reading some of the background and looking at some of the titles of the papers that you've helped, um, With, with research on, uh, there was something that struck me, I think is one of the, the value points of the book, of the upcoming book. And it talked about coordinating from one moment to the next, and it sounded fascinating, but I also didn't, I think I know what that meant, but I, I wanted to ask you about it. Yeah.

Alison Wood Brooks: 7:09

Yeah. So. The word coordination, um, I think is helpful. Something that's so unique, as we all know about interaction, is that there's multiple people involved. So the coordination is both about coordinating my actions with yours, right? The people who are interacting need to coordinate with each other. Um, but the, but the, in addition to that, which is already no mean feat, um, Conversation is unique because it's unfolding. It's changing from one moment to the next. Every time I say something new, it sets a spontaneous new context for you to respond to. I didn't know you were going to ask me for dad jokes. And so all of a sudden I have these new goals, these new demands on me. To be like, Oh man, I, do I know any, do not, do I know any dad jokes? Do I know any that are remotely funny? Do now I have this challenge of, do I try to be self deprecating about my lack of knowledge? Do we, like, how are we, and we're all adjusting and coordinating with all, every time someone speaks, that's like changes the context. So not only are we coordinating with each other, but we're coordinating within ourselves about how things are changing over time.

David Mastronardi: 8:28

Okay. Right. And that can feel in, in the, the struggle to be ourselves that can feel like an additional burden, right? Well, it's,

Alison Wood Brooks: 8:37

well, it's a little crazy. I mean, we do this, talking is a thing that we learn to do when we're toddlers. Like it's, it feels like by the time we get to adulthood, we should be good at it. We should be experts. We should know how to do it well and make progress and have fun and be charming and yada, yada, yada. Um, so we put a lot of pressure on ourselves to be great or to be good. And anytime there are these little moments where we're not, where it's awkward, where I don't know a dad joke, where I don't know what to say next, you feel quite, um, guilty about it and bad and feel like, Oh God, this is awkward. This is my fault. And, you know, then you get into these things, you know, conversation is a lot trickier than we think it should be. Um,

David Mastronardi: 9:21

right. To your point, how long we've been doing it and how natural it comes to us. Right.

Alison Wood Brooks: 9:27

And like, it just seems like it should be, it should be easy and effortless. And in truth, it is not. Um, and so whenever you're doing something that's not actually effortless, there's always room for improvement, even for the best communicators.

David Mastronardi: 9:40

So just one more question to hopefully set up, um, a little context for the scenarios that we're going to go through. Um, there was another point that caught my attention on your, on your site. Um, Provoking what opportunities are we missing in easy conversations to connect to be known. Um, and then I was looking through some of the, the, the titles of your research papers. I gaze, um, uh, topic preference, brainstorming topics ahead of time, which I've done and people are, what are you doing? I'm like, oh, we're going to meet so and so. And I just, I always have a difficult time talking to them. So I want to make sure I'm getting in the headspace, um, uh, to get more people to listen. So I guess. We're the labs at New Rules for Work. You teach at Harvard. There's this, um, uh, I suppose, rigor, prestige, professionalism connoted to all of these topics, but you're saying we're missing even in easy conversations that aren't necessarily a job interview or a, uh, a presentation. Oh, it's

Alison Wood Brooks: 10:46

wild. I really, so The way that I came to the type of research that I do, the course that I teach, this book that I'm writing, there are sort of decades of research and work on difficult conversations or so called difficult conversations. There are courses about negotiation and about power and influence and strategy and all these sort of intense, um, strategic things. And what I realized is I started out at Harvard Business School teaching a course on negotiation. And while I was teaching negotiation, and teaching about like, oh, how do we give hard feedback? Or like, how do we fire somebody? Or how do we negotiate for these deals? At the same time in my own life, I'm like, man, I like, very rarely have conversations like that. Most of my conversations are really fun and they're not fraught. They're, they're, they're sort of, um, There are topics that are silly. There are topics that are more serious. There are some moments that, oh, you realize, oh, this could, this could get a little bit more hostile than I want right now. Um, so I felt like there was this thing missing in the academic literature and in our pedagogy at the business school and maybe everywhere. Where it's like, you know, it's not just difficult conversations that are hard and important, but like seemingly easy conversations turn out to be surprisingly tricky, more complicated than they first appear, and possibly even more important because we're having them more frequently. We're having these conversations with people we know and love and with strangers and cashiers and like all the time, every day, and because they're so pervasive, The choices we make in them are incredibly consequential. So I felt like, okay, what if we recenter our focus academically on studying those types of conversations and also about teaching our students about how to have them a little bit more effectively, what would happen?

Elise Keith: 12:43

Well, and it seems that if, uh, a whole cohort of people grow up more effective in the kinds of conversations you're teaching, um, then the need for critical conversations should decline a bit because we can,

Alison Wood Brooks: 12:58

I was talking to, um, not my therapist, but a therapist yesterday, someone I was interviewing for my book and I had gone into the conversation wanting to ask her about apologies. I mean, apologies are one of the most sort of profound linguistic tools we have in our toolkit to manage our relationships and our decisions and to recover after there's been some harm. Um, so I was asking her about apologies and she said, you know, I have a mixed, mixed feelings about apologies, really what people care about. Is that when they're in a relationship, someone understands their perspective, they understand what they're, how they're seeing the world. And then number two, that if they have caused some harm, that they're, they're willing to take responsibility for it. She said, if you can, if you're achieving those two things, expressing, realizing that you understand the other person's perspective and that you're willing to take responsibility, if there's been harm, the apology no longer is even necessary. Like in a way it's sort of redundant. And I think that's. Sort of true for many of our conversational tools is like, yes, their apologies are incredibly powerful. We should be apologizing with very little hesitation, ideally. But if we did a better job of communicating in a way where we understood each other's perspectives better and made each other feel heard and seen and understood, and also took responsibility when things didn't go perfectly, then a lot of the problems that we see. erupting everywhere could be circumvented entirely.

David Mastronardi: 14:37

So I think that's a, a good context setting to lead into some of the scenarios that we, we want to have you. You

Alison Wood Brooks: 14:43

guys bring it on. I'm so ready. Advise

David Mastronardi: 14:45

on. Yeah. Elyse, do you want, do you want to take these? You want to take these first two? You want me to read them?

Elise Keith: 14:50

Why don't you? Dave has a much prettier reading voice than I do. So Dave, you should totally, come

Alison Wood Brooks: 14:56

on, totally read these. Actually,

David Mastronardi: 14:57

I mean, I really, I like Alison's encouragement there. I'll go. I'll do the first one. Okay. You do the second. I'll do the third.

Elise Keith: 15:04

Sounds great. Sounds great. Turn taking. Love it. Okay. Yeah. And then let's just see if we can find ways to help these people circumnavigate the need for nasty negotiations. Great.

David Mastronardi: 15:16

So here we go. As a renowned expert in cubicle and office workstation design, your decades of experience made you a sought after thought leader. But in recent years, businesses dried up, forcing you to seek a career change. The challenge, you're used to being the highly paid specialist in charge, making entry level roles in a new field unappealing. Your niche expertise also doesn't clearly fit with many open jobs. Undaunted, you've decided to leverage your network and attend industry events to explore opportunities. But how do you position yourself in these conversations? How do you convey the value of your experience while remaining humble about potentially starting from the bottom? And after years of being self employed, how will you adapt to a new organizational culture? Your networking approach could make or break this career reinvention from cubicle design wizard to what's next.

Alison Wood Brooks: 16:09

I love imagining being a cubicle design wizard. That sounds like a great life and true to life. If you really were a cubicle design wizard, this like COVID experience and remote work revolution is not going to be in your favor. Not

Elise Keith: 16:23

good for business. Not

Alison Wood Brooks: 16:25

good. Not good. Like selling ice in a blizzard. Um, okay. So here's what I'm thinking. Whenever in this scenario, I started to imagine very vividly. The context in which. These conversations are going to be occurring, right? What you've paid, the scene you've painted here is that I'm talking to strangers, essentially people I don't know. Well, that's an important part of the context because we need to communicate. We tend to communicate quite differently with people we don't know compared to people that we do know. Um, if I'm imagining vividly where we are, if you'll notice, I'm like, You should be thinking about the context, right? And context when it comes to conversation is who's there? Where are we? Like, what's the lighting? What are the smells? How are we communicating? Are we on Zoom? Are we in person? So here's what I'm imagining is the context. I'm in a room with a bunch of strangers at a conference. This is like a windowless ballroom um, where maybe, some people are hovering with those sad little plates of like, snacks. You know what I'm talking about? Like sad green tea. Yay! And some people have cocktails that they're gripping, like, hoping that will, that alcohol will make them this less awkward. My wine is my shield, that kind of. Yes, yes. Here is my rum and Diet Coke shield for these interactions. Um, Some of the people in the room know each other. Some of them, most of them don't. And I don't know anyone, essentially. Is that in line with the scenario? Yeah. Okay. Yeah, Matt, if you are in a networking event, you know, like the one we've just described, I think a lot of people have the instinct to try and impress the people around them, right? It's a profound human motivation is to make a positive impression on people. And unfortunately, the desire to make a positive impression on other people leads us to do things like we need to prove to others that we are competent, interesting. Fun, smart, whatever, all the good things proved to other people that were worth their time and attention. The reason that's misleading is that the way conversation actually works is that it's co created. So if you go in and you're like, I'm awesome, I'm awesome. I'm awesome. This person's like, okay, whatever, like maybe. Um, but if you're really engaging with someone in a dialogue, then you need to Figure out what they care, what they want out of the interaction. Not just out of the interaction, but what they want and need in general. So how can you help them get what they want? That's the key to networking. It's not really about you at all. And the same is true for so many contexts, right? People, salespeople, Procurement officers, managers at work. Always, when you're in an interpersonal situation, you have to think about what are the other person's goals. Why are they standing in this windowless ballroom with me, clutching their drink? Are they desperate to hire new people? Are they hoping to keep their finger on the pulse of, uh, what's happening in cubicle design world or some other world? Um, and so to start, I think you've got to just start by asking a lot of questions, right? These are people you don't know much about them, but you can discover quite quickly. Things they're interested in, um, what, and, and, and I, hopefully what their needs are, and as soon as you figure out what their needs are, then you can start to brainstorm, well, how can I help them achieve those, those things? How can I help deliver what they need? And if you are doing things and delivering things that other offering up things that other people need, you don't need to impress them. Like they actually need you. Um, so that's what I would do. And I would, I would ask a lot of questions. Uh, try to be enthusiastic and find levity, but ultimately try and figure out what they need and then figure out if I'm well suited to deliver what they need.

Elise Keith: 20:38

So given, um, the title of your, your book is actually an acronym, right? For Yes. TALK stands for Let me see if I get it right. I'm gonna, I'm waiting. I can't wait. Elise, you don't know. Topics asking levity and kindness. And in this Yes. Yes. All right. So in this situation, um, we lead with the second first, we lead with the asking.

Alison Wood Brooks: 21:05

Yeah. Right now. So asking. So the first two are topics and asking in, in the course and in my book and in your minds, I, you should think of topics and asking is going hand in hand. So to ask questions, you need to be on a topic, right? I could say like, where did you get all those beautiful plants, Elise? Now, all of a sudden, we've landed on the topic of plants. Mm hmm. So you can give me an answer like, Oh, I'm, you know, I'm a crazy plant lady, or like, whatever, whatever your interest is. Um, and then questions can continue to help steer us deeper and deeper in that topic, right? We can stay on plants. We can, you know, gently drift into gardening. We might gently drift into, you know, Aruba, where you bought these plants, right? But topics are the, the sort of tools we use to dive deeper onto a topic or to shift to a new one entirely. What if I start to feel like, okay, we've learned as much as we can from each other, About plants. Turns out I have a black thumb. I don't have much to say about them. Um, then a question like, Oh, like, what are you excited about lately? What are you working on? Can help us jump away from plants and into a new, a new topic. So topics are really these fundamental building blocks of conversation. If you look at how people talk back and forth to each other, all of their words and turns get chunked into topics. But questions and question asking is how we navigate between topics and dive deeply into them.

Elise Keith: 22:40

So in the situation, in the scenario that we've just painted, this networking situation, you've got both, right? So to prep, to go into it, it sounds like, if I'm hearing you correctly, that you'd want to come in Um, with your cheat sheet of topics you're ready to talk about. Yep. Should somebody else in the room have listened to the podcast and also come prepared to ask questions.

Alison Wood Brooks: 23:05

Totally. And look, both of you just gave a really great example of topic prep. So, I want to be clear about what topic prep is. It's very minimal. So, David went to my website and was like, Hey, I saw these couple phrases that seem interesting. I saw coordination. And, you know, right, so he went to the trouble of going to my website and just like picking up on a couple of things that he wanted to ask about. Elise prepped by saying, hey, I've read enough of your stuff that I know what this acronym T. A. L. K. E. is. I know it's Topics Asking Levity Kindness. Let's use that as a framework. If you hadn't done that work before we got here to the Zoom room, um, you wouldn't have been able to raise those topics. We wouldn't have been able to talk about them so smoothly. Um, topic prep is incredibly powerful. Not only does it give you topics to talk about, but it shows your partner that you cared enough to think about them while you weren't together. That was incredible. I'm so grateful that David went to my website and found coordination and trusting. And at least I'm so impressed that like, you could say that by memory is incredible. Um, so topic prep can be very minimal. It's like, you know, a little bit of online stalking. It's a little bit of forethought. Maybe you think back to the last conversation you had together. And say, Oh yeah, she mentioned that her mother was ill. I should really ask how her mother's doing. And you just like jot that down on your little list of topics. So you don't forget. In the context of the scenario that you have painted, which I'm, I love, it's so vivid, I hope, I hope, oh man, um, So topic prep there could look like, okay, here are a few questions I could ask anyone in the room. What are you excited about lately? Are you a good sleeper? Like, are you, do you enjoy exercise? Right? Are you a plant person? These are, we like to call, uh, this is, would be considered small talk because it's topics that anybody can talk about, but they, they kick off topics that can easily lead to deeper conversation. Once you start asking follow up questions, um, then if you know anything about the people in the room, what industry they're in. If they have prior work that's related to your cubicle design expertise, et cetera, you can think about that, like, oh, yeah, okay, there's going to be the CEO of this company that they, they, they aren't looking for cubicle designers, but they make it. I don't know, like, like particle boards that go on cubicle walls. So I know that if I run into that guy, I should be like, Hey, I really thought a lot about like cubicle cork boards. I, I love what you guys do. Like you're using this material. And I wonder about this material. Right. So you have thought about ahead of time. What can I use for my expertise that is linked to what that person might be interested in? And then once you're actually on that topic, you need to gauge whether they actually seem interested. And if they don't, then switch to something else.

David Mastronardi: 26:04

So can I just maybe make a plug for a paper that I did download and started to read the abstract? Is that what topic preference is about? Is like understanding what like, okay, so I'm going through and I'm asking these questions, and then I'm trying to pick up on the one that the person I'm asking might be interested in pursuing further.

Alison Wood Brooks: 26:22

And this is exactly what you were asking earlier, David, about the coordination game. An important aspect is that Ahead of the conversation, you can brainstorm possible topics, but once you're there, you got to pick up live on whether you're the other person that actually seems interested, and that's more nuanced, right? Like, that's really a skill to be honed. That's what good listening actually is. It's figuring out, like, Oh, are they giving me cues that they're actually into this, or are they just humoring me, or, um, are we slowed down? Are we starting to repeat things we've already said? Let's imagine that Elise and I were talking about plants for a while, and then I tell her again that I have a black thumb. Like, as soon as you start to hear redundancies,

Elise Keith: 27:04

Like done with the plants. Yeah, like like move on

Alison Wood Brooks: 27:08

time to move on. Um, uncomfortable laughter is another signal that things are slowing down Longer mutual silences. So where both people are sort of like It's like a signal that You have that weird panicky feeling where you feel like you should shift to something else, and you should. The shift to something else is made much easier if you have another topic in your back pocket that you've prepped from before the conversation.

David Mastronardi: 27:34

Another plug, there is a paper on getting, understanding the cues of whether people are not listening. But we should, yes, we should move on to the next, because it's been very valuable.

Elise Keith: 27:45

I want to want to key on real quick on one other thing that you just sort of casually brushed pie in there that I think is important for leaders, especially as you talked about small talk. Yes, being sort of a way to surface what people are actually interested in right so that that's searching for topics that might work in this group, which is such a different reframe from how it's. trained by so many consultants who position small talk as relationship building and getting to know you and everybody. And there are people who then have a, have a vomitorious reaction to that.

Alison Wood Brooks: 28:22

Also for everyone, honestly, I, I love small talk and I always have and so one of my biggest learnings from being a professor and teaching hundreds of MBA students and executives is realizing the profound sense of dread that people feel about small talk, like almost universally people hate it, or just think it's like a sort of shallow waste of time. They

David Mastronardi: 28:51

diminish it, yeah.

Alison Wood Brooks: 28:52

Yeah, and I get it. I totally understand. I think reframing it is incredibly valuable for two reasons. One, you can't not do small talk. It is unavoidable. It's the only way to start a conversation with, especially with strangers, but even with people that you're close to who you haven't seen in a while, or people like acquaintances that you don't know that well. You have to start somewhere, and that somewhere usually needs to be, um, a topic that anyone can talk about. And so, this feeling of dread, of like, oh god, I hate small talk, I don't want to do it, is counterproductive. Like, you just, you can't avoid it, so you need to accept the fact that it needs to happen. But the reframe is, instead of it having it be, the problem isn't with Smalltalk itself, it's that we let it go on too long, in the shallow space. So if we stay on plants, and you just, I don't know, we talk about plants shallowly, and then we keep talking about it, what the magic is, okay, plants is where we start, But then you say, Oh yeah, I saw this amazing tree in Aruba. And I'm like, Oh my God, tell me about the last time you were in Aruba. Like, that's incredible. And then you tell me something. And then maybe I share like, God, I've always wanted to learn how to surf. I I'm dying. Well, how did you do that? Like, give me recommendations. So this, you're moving up this pyramid, up this mountain, away from the base of the pyramid where Smalltalk lives, and you're moving to more tailored, more interesting, more vulnerable, more complicated, topical territory. But you gotta stop. You gotta start at the bottom, um, to get there. And it's not to be dreaded, guys. It can be fun. It's just like, it's the place where you live in order to search, like you were saying, Elise, to search for something better. I love

Elise Keith: 30:43

that. I love this, um, making it functional.

Alison Wood Brooks: 30:48

Yeah, it's true. Not just a small talk, but of any topic too, right? Like you, the mindset of how do we make this fun? How do we make it meaningful? How do we make this, uh, productive can be applied almost all the time in conversation. Like you show up somewhere, think to yourself, how can I make this fun for everyone? Well, that's not going to be a great lead into

Elise Keith: 31:09

our next topic. Oh no! Because our next scenario isn't all cubicle wizardry. It's a little bit, um, it's a little bit more challenging, and also something that we're starting to run into.

Alison Wood Brooks: 31:23

Okay.

Elise Keith: 31:24

So here you go. Yep. Um, at Scoop Dreams, the beloved ice cream brand, talks of integrating AI have caused a swirl of emotions among your diverse team of food scientists, marketers, and store reps. Surprisingly, it's the tech savvy young staffers who seem most anxious. Despite their deep knowledge of AI's potential, they fear their roles could be displaced by automation. The veteran employees, who've been scooping for decades, are also wary, but more hopeful their experience will keep them indispensable. As Director of Operations, you sense a stark divide. The knowledgeable youth are actively experimenting and paradoxically more threatened. while the seasoned old timers feel more secure, creating some communication barriers. Moreover, you know your technical AI expertise lags that of the frontline staff who have begun raising hard questions. So how do you initiate open conversations to address both the anxiety of your youngest team and the skepticism of the veterans? How do you bridge the knowledge and age gaps to smoothly steer scoop dreams through AI integration, keeping the company innovative and your talented workforce engaged? Especially when you and the rest of the leadership team agree that AI will impact your operations, but you have no idea how significant that impact might be.

Alison Wood Brooks: 32:59

It's like you could, that was so cleverly written. Oh my gosh. Um, you could replace scoop dreams and swirls of emotions with almost any. organization right now. I think this is really happening at a lot of, a lot of companies. Um, there's a lot going on in this scenario.

Elise Keith: 33:18

Um,

Alison Wood Brooks: 33:19

yeah, as, as in all scenarios in life, right? Like there are a lot of, I think that's part of what makes our interactions and our management and our leadership so fraught is that there's a lot going on. So in the book to start to make sense out of the complicated situations we find ourselves in the world. Um, I talk about, uh, a sort of framework to make sense out of difficult moments. And in the book I talk about this metaphor that is like layers of the earth. And so, some of our, um, difficult moments are above the surface. It's the words we use to talk to each other, it's our non verbals, it's the things we can see. It's like the trees and the airplanes and the cars and whatever, buildings, okay? The words we speak to each other, the, our hand gestures, the sound of our voices. Um, in this case, What they're talking about seems to focus mostly on how on AI and how that's going to be integrated into their work at what was it called? Ice cream scoop dreams, scoop dreams. Oh my God. It sounds like the place I worked when I was 16. Um, I love it. I also had a swirl of emotions there. Um, so well

Elise Keith: 34:44

remembered.

Alison Wood Brooks: 34:45

Yeah, exactly. Um, the, what we're talking about is above the surface. Right at the surface of the Earth. sort of slithering in the grass are our emotions. So how do we feel about this? And you gave some detail about how the younger people who are more informed about what AI can really do are feeling particularly anxious about, about it. The older folks, uh, in the firm are a little less informed and more skeptical that They have a lower fear of replacement, but also like they're kind of probably have a low grade anxiety, but maybe annoyance about how the younger employees are reacting, right? So there's a lot of mixed emotions happening. And that happens when there's uncertainty and AI. You know, we don't know what's going to happen really. Uh, there's a lot of uncertainty and uncertainty breeds fear and conflict. So right at the surface of the earth are all of these emotions swirling about this topic of AI. At, at scoop dreams, scoop dreams. Yeah. And right beneath the crust of the earth are people's motives or goals. So. In this scenario, it strikes me that the more senior employees who have been there longer, their goal is, um, to make sure that the firm is doing well, they want to keep their jobs, they want to do good work, they want to be good mentors to these younger folks, but they're like a little skeptical about how the younger people are feeling. The goals of the younger employees might include, like, they want to incorporate AI in their work. They want to be taking advantage of it to be designing the best ice cream flavors that they can, or making the best designs for their marketing materials, or whatever. Um, but they really want to keep their jobs. And they're actually afraid of replacement. And, and maybe rightly so. Um, And then, and then their other goals is that they want to, as all more junior people in organizations do, want to impress their bosses. They want to make a good impression. They want to be seen as competent, but also confident. They want to, they don't want to seem afraid, but they are afraid. So there's all of these mixed motives happening under the surface. And they're not observable, you guys. They can't, we can't see them. They're under the earth. It's all of these things about what we want. That can only be surfaced if we talk about them. And then, even most troublingly of all, at the core of the Earth, are people's identities, right? So, in this scenario, you were very careful about explaining that there are differences among these employees. They're different in age. They're different in their knowledge of AI. They're probably different in their job responsibilities. So, the extent to which These employees identify as experts on AI, or as a young person, or as, um, I've been at this, I've been at ScoopDreams for, you know, 30 years. Um, that's a core part of who I am now. Like, they can't take that away from me. Um, All of those things, our conversations that we have with each other, there, there are these surprising fleeting moments that shoot down to the core of the earth and touch on our identities. And that's when we become defensive and potentially hurtful to each other. Um, and it happens in sort of sudden and unexpected ways. Sometimes it's clear to us that we've said something that's hurtful to somebody, uh, and to their identity. And sometimes it's not even observable. It's happened and someone's feeling terrible, but we don't even know. And so conflict can happen at any one of these layers, right? Above the surface, we can have actual disagreement with each other and sort of hostile conflict. Our emotions might be very incongruous. If someone's feeling afraid and another person's feeling angry, that's not going to go well, our motives are in conflict. Like the young people want to incorporate AI. The older people are skeptical. Um, the younger people are like, I want to keep my job. The older people are like, but you're annoying. I want to fire you. Um, And then and then at our very core, of course, we're all different in many, many ways. And so our identities are different in many ways. And so we're navigating all of these differences at every level in every conversation. Um, so for the scoops dream, uh, leader leadership, I think it would be really important. I think it's important to sit down and, and try and hear each other out about fears and opportunities related to AI. So that you can hopefully take advantage of its massive power, but also be prepared, right, that neither side is right, quote unquote, right or wrong. The youngins can teach them how to harness the power of AI. The older employees can also hopefully be comforting to the younger employees. So on the helpful

David Mastronardi: 40:07

it. Absolutely. Um, in the, the metaphor, the framework that you used about, you know, what's visible, then we'll put all the way down to the core. Is there a boundary that you should either stop digging at if you're the leader or, should you not go past a certain point down to the core, um, in a professional setting? Or should you go all the way? Is it advisable to, hey, this is my identity, you know, I'm mint chocolate chip and I gotta be mint chocolate chip.

Alison Wood Brooks: 40:43

It's a great what's the

Elise Keith: 40:45

way to be kind to all of these people and respectful.

Alison Wood Brooks: 40:50

So one, one answer to this that I think will be keenly familiar to Elise is thinking about the structure of the conversations rather than like, how deep do we go or not? Um, is thinking about who's there and do they feel safe? So group conversation, sitting in a boardroom with all of these different people around the table, almost by definition, as a default, feels unsafe to many people in the room. Because there's just too, you know, group conversation is just a group conversation. Chaotic kerfuffle. There's too many people in the audience. They're too heterogeneous. You know some of them really well and feel comfortable and know other people less and don't feel comfortable. There's complicated relationship dynamics between all of them. So sometimes the answer is on a sense. There's no such thing as a sensitive topic, but there is very much the thing of a sensitive context, including Who's in the room and, you know, are they, are they ready? Are they ready to talk about it? Um, so this is where like psychological safety comes in to play so much. Um, but ultimately, I mean, you can imagine then that the prescription for the leaders is like, all right, meet with everybody one on one have a deep and safe understanding of how they feel about everything. Um, but ultimately. People are truly going to differ in their preferences. And as a leader, you need to make a decision that's probably going to make some people happier than, than others. Um, and that's sort of the name of the game, but getting people's buy in to understand why you're making those choices, um, is, is very, very important. Um, and, and again, I think often when we think about work and conversation, our minds often default to the, Oh, my God, I'm sitting in a room with 12 people, and that's not how conversations have to look, uh, and in fact, you know, catching up with people ahead of time or sequentially in smaller groups or one on one, um, can be much more effective, especially when things are really, really sensitive. If you feel like people are really afraid. Or angry or, you know, not ready to talk about something in a group.

David Mastronardi: 43:06

Break it down. Break it down. Okay. Yeah. Do we have time for one more?

Elise Keith: 43:13

We hit, we've hit technical time because we had such a, such a slow start. Yeah. So this is, this is not like

Alison Wood Brooks: 43:19

tech problems. Hold us back you guys.

David Mastronardi: 43:22

And, uh, Alison, I should say that all of these scenarios. Are inspired by true events, but we've changed the names to protect.

Elise Keith: 43:31

You can tell there is no scoop dreams, but there might be some other companies that we know who are having that challenge.

David Mastronardi: 43:40

Okay. Here's the third scenario. Uh, imagine yourself a bit's the flurry of a new team formation where excitement and anticipation mingle with a touch of trepidation as a team begins to coalesce. You find yourself among a group of talented individuals, each bringing their own unique strengths and perspectives to the table. However. Amidst the hustle and bustle of introductions and brainstorming sessions, you can't help but notice a recurring pattern. A dominant voice, bold and assertive, seizing the reins of leadership and steering the direction of the team with unwavering confidence. As one of the quieter voices in the room, you feel a pang of apprehension creeping in. Despite harboring valuable insights and ideas, you find yourself hesitant to speak up, overshadowed by the commanding presence of the dominant voice. It's not that your contributions are any less significant, Rather, it's the fear of being drowned out by the cacophony of louder voices that keeps you anchored in silence. Yet deep within the recesses of your mind, a flicker of determination ignites a resolve to overcome your inhibitions and make your voice heard amidst the clamor of assertive personalities. But how do you navigate this uncharted terrain where the path to recognition is obscured by the shadows of self doubt and apprehension?

Alison Wood Brooks: 44:50

Oh, the forever challenge of Airtime sharing the forever challenge of turn taking. And, you know, as group size grows, uh, we know that fewer and fewer people tend to take up the higher percentage of the airtime. Um, as we were just talking about at scoop dreams, um, thinking about group size is really important. Um, As groups scale to be larger than six or eight people, um, conversation loses some of the spontaneous, loose, informal dynamics that, for most of us, make conversation fun because there's just too many people there, right? And so you tend to adopt more formal, structural ways of organizing and running the conversation, whether it's taking turn, I don't know, passing around a stick to show who's talking, or talking sequentially, or popcorning, or there's a facilitator who's telling, who's saying when, who should, who should speak and, and go. Um, but, but from the very get go thinking about group size, does this new group of talented minds all need to be in the room at the same time? Or should we fragment into smaller, smaller work groups and then rotate, um, so that you can achieve the knowledge sharing that comes from being all together, but also still capture the bubbling excitement and and sort of, um, more equitable airtime sharing that tends to happen in smaller groups. Right. When you think about a one on one conversation, people tend to be much better at turn taking and going back and forth because a conversation can't happen unless both people are sort of participating in it. Right. As soon as a third person pulls up a chair, that changes. Um, it feels to us like we're doing the same task because it's conversation either way, two people or three people. But as soon as a third person pulls up a chair, the other person can be completely silent and not participate. And just watch and the conversation can, can, can carry on, um, between the other two people. So that just being aware of that, that's a profound difference, um, that as soon as there's three people, one person can be completely silent, um, really changes the dynamic. Um, and some of the people with the best, we all know this, right? People with the best ideas or, um, the most to say may feel the least comfortable saying them and in a group. Um, So again, making sure that as a leader, you're staying in touch with everyone before, during, after, and thinking structurally, what's the, do we really need to talk about this as a whole group? Um, what are we gaining from that? Um, versus like, what can we accomplish in smaller, smaller groups?

David Mastronardi: 47:42

Do you ever address this, this, this voice, the louder, the dominant voice? Do you ever address it directly? In the situation I'm thinking of specifically, the person who has come to sort of dominate has a very analytical, uh, uh, mind. And I think the team is kind of falling in almost hypnosis with this, Oh, like, this is really good work. They show up there. They're, um, they're very professional in a way. And so they tend to get the following of the other group. And to some degree, they think like, Oh, they're, This person must be doing it right. And that must be the way to go. But deep, like I know down in my heart, kind of like we should be, we should be adding to and complimenting this, this analytical personality. And I wonder if it would be worth talking to that person and saying, Hey, look, the group really looks up to you. Like there's, you don't, and you don't have to, you'll actually probably do less work right now. You're probably doing it all because everybody else feels too timid. Do you? So I guess, would it be advisable from, uh, you know, somebody in the group to say, Hey, tap into this. And, you know, you can raise our voices without necessarily dealing with it in a more indirect

Alison Wood Brooks: 48:51

way

David Mastronardi: 48:52

is.

Alison Wood Brooks: 48:53

I'm going to be so, uh, I'm going to reveal something. I, I am that person in a group conversation. I'm the loud one. I'm the dominant one. And even, even knowing, um, even knowing this about airtime sharing, it's a very hard thing to fix or to change. And I spend a lot of my professional life working incredibly hard to stay quiet. And let other people contribute, um, before me and more often than me, I think I hope that a lot of other sort of outspoken leaders feel feel that way, too, and they work hard at it. I think the challenge is, even if you. Say, tell them explicitly. I want to hear from you or you go to visit them before the meeting and say, like, please, like, speak up. I really want to hear. Um, it's still really hard to overcome these like airtime dominance dynamics. A lot of people have tried different interventions in their research to try and sort of break the patterns that groups get into Especially when the leader is competent and people are deferential and they're like sort of happy to mostly happy to go along with the leader. One thing that seems very subtle, but turns out to be kind of profound is, um, instead of explicitly telling people or using words to say, hey, hey, Elise, I haven't heard from you in a while. Like, why don't you share something? Um, the reason that using verbal cues like that to elicit participation from other group members doesn't work well is because of timing. Like, right now, I don't know if Elyse has something to add right now, but I bet she did like five minutes ago when I was monologuing about Layers of the Earth. Um, so you don't, you can't know when someone else is poised to participate. So what we look for in our research on group conversation are things that you can do that are not about explicitly cold calling other group members. Or, Um, Or just, or telling them, hey, we really want to hear from you, um, because timing matters. So one thing that does seem to help instead of words is eye gaze. So often when you find yourself in a group conversation like what this group is going through of talented individuals, um, people naturally appoint their gaze to the high status group member to the person who's talking more. To who has more power or status, et cetera, and you get in the habit of doing that. Um, as soon as you realize that about human nature, it's a little bit troubling, actually. Like, we, it's so dramatic. Like, you will look at the person who's the boss or who matters, and almost completely, it's like low status people in a group are invisible to you. Which is dehumanizing. Um, and And it not only it makes them feel invisible to write like it's almost like they're sitting in the back row. They're not at the same table as the other people who are interacting. So if we can break our eye gaze patterns, even a little bit. To make sure that you're not only looking at the high status, dominant leaders of the group, um, but also making sure you share a moment of shared gaze with someone else. Or, like, look at someone, make sure when they do talk you're really looking at them. But making it more equitable eye gaze around the table. is so powerful that it actually changes how people share airtime later in the conversation. When they do have something to add, they feel much more seen and empowered to actually contribute it to the group conversation.

David Mastronardi: 52:36

So you're doing what you think you're doing when you're like, Oh, Allison, you have something to say right now. What you think that should engender is actually achieved by Doing the eye gaze because that gives people the confidence that when they do have something to say, they say it and you don't have to prompt, you don't have to cold call.

Alison Wood Brooks: 52:53

Like who knows when it, like maybe they, you're just gonna make them feel terrible in that moment. I'm like, Oh no, not now. But you know, in five minutes I will. And two minutes ago I did, but not right now.

David Mastronardi: 53:02

Yeah. And it's even more awkward to say, to speak up when it's out of the flow of the conversation. When the moment is passed.

Alison Wood Brooks: 53:08

Exactly. Because they could say, well, I don't right now, but actually I was thinking when we were talking about plants, like I really, I have this amazing watering can I wanted to share with everyone, which is fine. And it's great to hear from them, but it also disrupts the natural. Yes, it takes you back to a topic that it disrupts the natural flow of a group and what you're able to achieve together.

Elise Keith: 53:31

So a couple of things you've talked about there that, um, that I wonder about because I gaze is. Incredibly powerful and we're increasingly remote. Exactly. Do you find similar impact from, um, the pause? Right, which is a, which is an old facilitator trick, like just leaving the blank space and letting everybody look at each other to see who's going to talk next.

Alison Wood Brooks: 53:56

Yeah, so you can't use the, you can't use the eye gaze trick on Zoom because everybody, that's part of why Zoom is so exhausting actually, is like everybody sort of feels like they're looking at everyone at once. Um, but yes, the pause is incredibly powerful. It's something that I've had to work on as a teacher in a classroom. A lot of introverts in particular need. Quiet moment. If you ask a question, they need 10 seconds to really think about their answer before they can jump in or feel comfortable participating. Whereas others like external processors are like, I don't know what I want to say immediately. And so they're always going to dominate the airtime. Or the introverts or the people who are more internal, uh, processors need more time to think about it.

David Mastronardi: 54:40

So if I could follow up on that specifically, do you, do you say, do you ask the question and say like no answers or do you say, cause a lot of the times I feel the same. I know exactly what, as soon as you said that, I'm like, Oh, uh, I know that guy. He always just says something first. I think to say something first, do you say like, I want everybody to take 30 seconds before we answer this. But here's the question.

Alison Wood Brooks: 55:01

Yes.

David Mastronardi: 55:02

Okay.

Alison Wood Brooks: 55:02

Yes. And I usually think 10 seconds and then I actually wait like 20, um, 30 seconds. Sounds like a long sounds

David Mastronardi: 55:09

like forever.

Alison Wood Brooks: 55:10

I feel like I need to write an essay in the intervening moments or something. No, I'll say, I'm going to give you 10 seconds before we answer this question. Moments of 10 seconds of silence before we answer this question. Here's the question. And then you really give it, give them time. And then those internal processors feel much more comfortable raising their hands at Okay. Um, the other thing that I was going to suggest that works Similarly, on Zoom, as Eye Gaze is um, private chats. Private chat is like, is akin to having that private connection of shared gaze, that magical moment of like, I see you, I appreciate you, I'd love to hear from you at some point. You can just type that to someone in the private chat, be like, hey, I'm here. I think they'd really love to hear your idea here. Um, so that is a tool that online meetings have that in person we deeply miss out on, actually.

Elise Keith: 56:08

I want to tap into an experience that you and I had, actually, on back on the structure. Question, right? Like that, that creating groups and smaller groups. Um, I remember I came in and I was talking with your class and we were talking about the power of the one, two, all method, which is exactly that, right? It's the pause and then dyadic conversation. And then they come back and I asked, you know, who's familiar with this method? And most of the people said that they had never experienced it before. They had no, they had not, it was like, uh, you know, they were like, nope, never heard of it. Even though you had been doing it over and over and over again with that same group of people. Um, and I thought that was a brilliant illustration of how, uh, people can feel hesitant to do structure because it feels like you're doing a facilitation thing. Yes. But when you do it, the people in the room don't even notice because they get to get into natural conversations. Yes. Yes. So.

Alison Wood Brooks: 57:08

I feel that way about almost every conversation exercise, so my course is entirely conversation exercises, sometimes they're in the Elyse Keith format of one, two, four, all, um, just tons of stuff, right? We get them together, two groups of three, big groups, small groups, talking about all kinds of weird stuff. And when I describe that to other instructors, they're sort of like, what, that's such a risk. That's so crazy. And I'm like, no, it's, it's so natural and so easy and fun because we've all been trained to do conversation our whole lives. You give someone a goal and a topic and a partner. And they're off. They're off and running. We all know how to do that. I say painting, make it fun. Talk to David. You're good to go. You're good to go in any structure, in any format. And who knows where that conversation is going to take you. Um, so it's just, I agree with you, Elise. So like, it sounds like Oh, this is like a big structural thing and we're facilitating it. It's this whole thing. No, it's, it's really simple and everybody is trained to, to do it well. And so it's just so natural. Yeah. It just becomes invisible. It's invisible. It's exactly right. Yep.

Elise Keith: 58:28

Very cool.

Alison Wood Brooks: 58:29

Very cool. I think people feel the same way, by the way, on Zoom when you start talking about breakout rooms and all this stuff. People are like, whoa, whoa, whoa, that's so involved. And I'm like, no, you know, what's involved is expecting 200 people to listen to a lecture for 30 minutes. God bless you. No one can listen to that. You have

David Mastronardi: 58:47

to.

Alison Wood Brooks: 58:47

Unless you break it up with, okay, we're going to break off into groups of two or three, and we're actually going to talk now so that you don't, you know, you're not daydreaming about Scoop's dreams. These mints swirl at Scoop's dreams.

David Mastronardi: 59:03

Uh, well, we are well past time, Alison. Thank you for staying with us. Time

Alison Wood Brooks: 59:07

flies when you're having fun, guys. Thank you so much for the conversation.

David Mastronardi: 59:11

Um, where can people go To learn more about your work, your book. Where should we send them?

Alison Wood Brooks: 59:19

Yep. So they should go to allisonwoodbrooks. com. They can join the talk community and they'll get updates about my forthcoming book, which will be called talk the science of conversation and the art of being ourselves. It'll be published by crown next January, 2025, and they can sign up to get updates and uh, insider info about the book launch. Um, yeah, and you can, you can just follow along. The book will follow the, uh, The logic of the course that I teach at Harvard. So it'll be accessible to everyone.

David Mastronardi: 59:53

And there's plenty of interesting research to download on your site as well.

Alison Wood Brooks: 59:57

Yes. More than any more academic articles than anyone ever would want.

Elise Keith: 1:00:02

You know what though? I had chat GPT summarize them all for me this morning. No. Oh, yeah. And I was like, handy dandy. I'm in love. How did it do? Was it interesting? Well, I didn't, like, double check that it was entirely

Alison Wood Brooks: 1:00:17

accurate. You can ask me if it's accurate. That's right. Yeah,

Elise Keith: 1:00:20

but it was interesting. Um, and it gave me a sense of which one I actually wish to read. Awesome. That's so cool. Which was super cool. Yeah.

Alison Wood Brooks: 1:00:31

Tell the young people that are afraid of losing their jobs, Aline.

Elise Keith: 1:00:34

No, no, no, man. Amplify your job. Augment your job. so, so much for agreeing to talk with us.

Alison Wood Brooks: 1:00:45

You got it. You're the best. Thank you so much for having me guys.

David Mastronardi: 1:00:48

Our pleasure.

David: 1:01:00

Thank you for joining us in the lab. We appreciate our guests for contributing to the thoughtful discussions on the future of work. A quick nod to Padraic, our behind the scenes maestro, for making each episode possible. If you've enjoyed the ideas we've explored today and want to put them into action, check out our companion newsletter at labs. newrulesforwork. com for the practical activities and additional resources. Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform. Your feedback is the catalyst for our ongoing journey into the future of work. Thank you once again for joining us. We'll see you next time in the lab.